Requirements?

[Matt]

My biggest pet peeve in doing freelance programming is people that don't really know what they want. You get some clients that give you a very vauge description of the application and then when you try and get more info from them to detail the requirements they balk!

I understand that there is going to be some need for input from the programmer as to what is feasible and what isn't. But some of these people just expect you to dream up their entire application. At that point its like, why should I program this for you when I am the one dreaming it all up and I could just program it and then sell it myself!

Anyway, it's just a pet peeve of mine...how does everyone else deal with it? Just charge for all the consultation time?

[shoney]

I am no programmer, by any stretch. I can relate somewhat from my past business experiences though. They know (usually) exactly what it is they want... Just no clue how to explain it to you.

To pitch in my 2 centavo's worth though... like you said, you know it's going to come up. Sometimes moreso than others, therefore just try to build in some kind of buffer into your pricing to accomodate the creativity that will undoubtedly have to come from you.

I agree though, it can become to much sugar for a dime, in some cases.

[honcho]

I really haven't found any difference in this area between freelance programming and programming as an employee of a company. With freelancing, there's just no one else to go to.

Most customers really don't know what they want; all they know is what they have and what they don't like about what they have. Unfortunately, the ones that do have an idea about what they want often aren't willing to stick there neck out and say it. I find that the smaller the customer's business, the better they are at knowing and explaining what they want.

[notepad]

that used to be a pet peeve of mine.

what i did was took a weekend, and basically typed up a bunch of specs on how a project is formed and comes together, what i need to work with as the programmer etc etc and made it into a nice little graphical interface and burned onto a disc.. this way, when somebody wants to hire me as a contractor for a project, i give em a copy of my disc (which i think the idea of getting a free disc is just cool and techy) and then tell them to look over that and THEN give me a call when they're more prepared.

after that it's all in the contract. they get what they ask for, if they want more then we work a new estimate :D

[WrongWay]

I try to get a client to clearly state their goals. Then i determine the resources needed to complete the task. And price accordingly.

If the customer, however, cannot-will not describe the task adequetly , I am forced to bill them on an HOURLY basis rather than a per project basis.

[Neo Designs]

I dont do much programming, but usually when I get a clients, theyre either too strict about what they want or don't have an idea about what they need.

I had one clients who wanted a site made, but didn't know what the name of the site was gonna be, or what he wanted the pages to be about, so he asked me to come up with stuff. So I made my, I mean his site for him with my ideas.

Then I had a client for a cd cover who wanted all this custom stuff for it. Such as an indian woman, pressed against wet glass dressed in indian clothing. And he wanted it all to be an actual picture. And he wanted it all for 50.00 Still working on that one there. :)

I guess you've got your really good clients, your good clients and the rest of them.

Tim

[ivans]

I can relate to users who don't have any ideas for their application, but slow users are easy to handle... fast thinking ones are much worse:

What bothers me the most is when a smart user will "rake" you for a piece of info. For instance, somebody asks me a question and requires to see if I can provide a "conceptual" solution of the problem. Then they take the "conceptual" solution, have someone else implement it and then dissapear :(

Bazzzztardz :mad:

Also, there are some "friends" that will try to use their closeness with you to get freebies. I usually have two cathegories of people: one that I'd do anything for, without asking for anything in return, and those that get a clear explanation right at the start about my hourly consultancy fees.

If people balk at the idea of paying for your services, explain to them straight out: you spent time learning stuff. Time is money.

BSTS :D

[filefrog]

People not knowing what they want out of computers isn't just confined to freelance work tho.

I'm a database admin / designer / fix-it-when-its-broken-because-of-incompetnet-users guy where i work, and sometimes people have no concept about how they want the database to work.

Sometimes they know exactly how they want it to work, but won't believe me when i talk about resources being limited. At least with freelancing they come to you. :-D

[superalloy]

I do requirements for a living and I understand the frustration. Most business people don't understand the value or the need for spending the time necessary to figure out what they need. - I would like to see something put together along the lines of what notepad described that anyone that wanted to could modify as they see fit. Could be a web based php app to log the info, log it in the database, set up some adjustable estimating tools, ... ?

[danzarrella]

i find even in a salary full time situation the less techy the person defining the project, the more they follow the feature creep development style. They define yeah a few functions to start and only give the app serious thought when its 3/4 of the way done. which leads to crap code.

[superalloy]

It also makes it tough when management doesn't see the value in spending time / money defining the project (shouldn't 99% of the cost be for programming? - general thought)

[joeldg]

graphics peeps need to be aware of getting ripped off as well.
my wife has experienced the
"oh no, that is not what I wanted, could you do me another twenty banners" thing before, where she ends up making 40 banners that they use all of.

matermark, create view sheets with red X's through etc..

-for graphics peeps..
I'm a coder, so..

[Matt]

Originally posted by superalloy
It also makes it tough when management doesn't see the value in spending time / money defining the project (shouldn't 99% of the cost be for programming? - general thought)

Yeah unfortunately some people do think that the brunt of the cost should be for the actual programming. In reality, it should be more like 25-40% of the cost for the actual programming. The rest should be in design and testing....

[jolson]

Approaching a project as an architect approaches constructing a building helps in my work. This helps some clients visualize the process a little more clearly. It does take time though . . .

[superalloy]

I had a discussion yesterday with someone using the same sort of analogy:

If you are building a bridge, first you decide what it needs to do- how many cars / hour, how big the boats underneath, etc (REQUIREMENTS). Then you design the bridge - where it goes, what it connects to, what to make it out of, how often to support it, ... (DESIGN). Then you build it (DEVELOP), and you don't build it before you do either of the previous two. Should be the same way in application development.

my two cents worth.

[Saruman]

As for me, I have some good practices with this sort of clients. Of course I uses it only when I deals with a perspective client because it requires some time and work.
I comes to a client and talks about his vision of a project. If it is not enough - I starts to write a my own description of a project. I makes it very detailed, with some variants of a key parts, giving the prices for each variant. I includes in this doc basic concepts, functional details, pages layouts etc, so when I comes back to a client I can give him a full and detailed overview of a project. This helps a lot to discuss things in a more practical way and produce a start project description that mirrors a client's plans. Then we mark it as a first "milestone" and all of the later serious changes performs on a pay-per-change basis.
It works and it works not bad.

[craig]

before i even touch a computer i draw out flowcharts and diagrams to show exactly how a project is going to work... usually this starts with a database design

this means any major bugs will be removed (assuming i show these drawings to relivant people) before they're even written into the code... and of course the project's going to do what everyone wants it to do

[nullrun]

I have not been working as a freelancer that long, and I am doing some research on how freelancers get paid. Most of my projects are through a friend of mine and he says it is common for his clients to take 30 days or more to pay him. Is this true?
What are your experiences? Do you ever get money in advance?
On large projects, do you sometimes get paid weekly? By project phase?

So far it seems as though it takes him at least 30 days to pay me, even though what I have been doing is mostly small tools. As he is one of my only clients, I am hesitant to alienate him by insisting on payment sooner, or asking for some in advance. What would you suggest?

[Matt]

Well, it is all up to what you negotiate. Personally, I insist on payment before delivery if I don't have an existing relationship with the client. That doesn't mean I don't work with them and do the work before payment. But, they don't get the code until payment is made.

Once I have established a relationship with a client, I normally allow them to pay me after delivery. Alot of places like to do the net 30 thing because the pay all bills at one time during the month. As long as you trust the client, I don't see a problem with that...

As for a very large project, yes I will require a certain amount (usually 25%) before I even begin work.

[Saruman]

On a large projects that may lasts for a some monthes or even longer I often receives monthly payment after doing some initial work. Client already have a basic working sceleton of an application so he can decide if it is what his want and if I'm doing my work good.

[nullrun]

Thanks for the replies. I have also been researching contracts and noticed that one way to make sure you get paid is to specify in the contract that copyright is not transferred untill final payment is made. Does this sound like a resonable clause to include?

Great site by the way.

[Matt]

Most definately. You should always retain the copyright until payment is made....good thinking!